Kedian: Alright. Kedian: Let's go ahead and get started. Kedian: As you know this is part of an ongoing series about Kedian: theology and philosophy. Kedian: We've talked about the octagram, the gods, the Octave, Kedian: rebirth, and the cycle. Kedian: Today I'd like to tak about order and chaos, and Kedian: consider "what lies beyond", so to speak. Kedian: I owe some thank yous for the development of this lecture. Kedian: In particular I want to thank Topic Gareth, for general Kedian: discussions, and Lady Angelique, *gestures*, who Kedian: long ago published her analysis of the orderly and Kedian: chaotic natures of our world. Kedian: Now then. Kedian: Many people naively assume from a philosophical point of Kedian: view, that light and order are identical; and chaos and Kedian: darkness, the same. Kedian: As philosophers, however, we should hold ourselves to Kedian: higher standards of rigor. Kedian: It is our job to examine things from every angle, and in Kedian: particular, I think this subject to be very worthy of our Kedian: study. Kedian: By the way. If anyone has any thoughts, questions, or Kedian: complaints, just say so. Kedian: Let's begin by considering chaos. Kedian: The unenlightened believe this to be a negative force, Kedian: a purely destructive one. Kedian: But in fact, chaos, much like order, has at least two Kedian: facets: destructive, and constructive. Kedian: We're all familiar with chaos as a destructive force, Kedian: I daresay. Kedian: Ceannlaidir is often the avatar of this. War being its Kedian: absolute embodiment. Kedian: Chaos however, can also be constructive. What if the war Kedian: is to overthrow a ruthless despot? Kedian: Or, consider Danaan, the lightbringer. Kedian: We can actually say that static darkness - unceasing, Kedian: un-ending darkness - is actually a form of order. Elzebet" Is this a play by play of Chloe's lore? Kedian: But, so is light - an infinite void of light would be just Elzebet" or a correction of her lore? :P Kedian: as orderly as an infinite void of darkness. Elzebet> It is not a discussion of gods per se, but of what Elzebet> lies beyond them. Elzebet> Also, do you want to ask your question aloud? Elzebet" What a great segue into hybrasyl Elzebet" Yeah Elzebet" Sure Kedian: We have a question from Elzebet. Kedian: ((....damnit)) Elzebet" I've done that before ;p Elzebet> Go ahead. Elzebet: [[i think we've all done that before]] Elzebet: Thank you, Kedian - I was referencing the Loures Library Kedian: ((*loud cursing*)) Elzebet: and recalled a particular piece from a colleague Elzebet: of yours, Chloe of Glioca Angelique: *coughs* Luathas *coughs* Kedian: ...Yeah, my ex-wife actually, but we don't have the time to Kedian: unpack that. Kedian: *laughs* Elzebet: Sorry, Luathas... I guess Glioca was someone else... Kedian: So..I assume you are referring to her treatise on the gods. Kedian: Chloe's analysis was of the interplay between our deities, Kedian: and the formation of the octagram. Elzebet: ::Lifts hand:: Kedian: Go ahead. Elzebet: But what you are saying now negates what she pieced Elzebet: together. Kedian: Philosophy is often in a state of constant disagreement, Kedian: this being my opinion on theology. Kedian: Of course I think I am correct, but *shrugs* Kedian: most philosophers do. Elzebet: I think you are correct, but I am surprised Elzebet: that we don't have a formal revision of Chloe's personal Elzebet: opinions, which we have sort of had to re-train Elzebet: current Aislings on. ::Ponders:: Kedian: Mhm. Elzebet" that's all I was saying actually ;p Kedian: I will take a note of that, and perhaps I will write a Kedian: new summary of what, in particular, I believe. Elzebet: ::nods:: Kedian: So....yes. I understand what I will say will surprise some Kedian: and negate a lot of previous philosophy, but it will, I Kedian: promise, make sense, and be logically consistent, which is Kedian: the same rigor we must all apply to our own efforts. Kedian: Let's move on for now, I need to sketch this idea out a Kedian: little more. Angelique: On the topic of Chloe, one should keep in mind that Angelique: the lens that one views theology with is often Angelique: colored by one's entry point. Chloe, a Luathan, is Angelique: going to have a much different view than say... Enclave, Angelique: a Sgrian. Elzebet: ah... good point. Kedian: Yeah, Angelique is often annoying like that. Kedian: *laughs* Angelique: Correct. Kedian: OK. So going back to the concept of the void. Kedian: Light and darkness in totality, are effectively, largely proggy" perception is reality but which is right and which is wrong Kedian: identical: formless, boundless. Kedian: I think we can say for sure, however, that we would Kedian: prefer residing with Danaan for eternity, than in Kedian: Chadul's void - a gibbering darkness, slowly losing our Kedian: minds for eternity, frozen like flies caught in amber. Kedian: Regardless. The sahdows, the interactions between light Kedian: and darkness, the infinite shades and colors - that is Kedian: the stuff of life, and of chaos - *creative* chaos. Kedian: Constructive chaos. Kedian: This chaos powers our world. It is the engine of its Kedian: novelty. Kedian: A fellow philosopher you may know, Dionia, asked at a Kedian: recent class of hers: what age of Temuair are we in? Kedian: Many answers were put forth. Some good. Kedian: Some very obviously wrong. Kedian: One interesting thought that we might linger on is Kedian: Sgrios. Kedian: Sgrios is an interesting thought, because if you have Kedian: listened to any of my previous classes - we bear daily Kedian: witness to the ongoing decay of our world and our flame. Kedian: But, it is not precise enough. Kedian: Although we are in a state of decay, yes - we are also Kedian: frozen within it. Kedian: Recall what I said before about the Octave and the cycle of Kedian: rebirth. Kedian: There is only one power we may associate with a fixed, Kedian: decaying, infinite static. Kedian: And so I must conclude, actually, that the age we are in, Kedian: is in fact the age of Chadul. Elzebet" I need a tardy whenever you can. Kedian: Since the battle of Light versus Dark - we believed Kedian: Chadul was defeated, sealed - but in truth, the light of Kedian: our collective, constructive chaos did not last. Kedian: The lights have dimmed, and Chadul returns, to bring Kedian: ((Wow, never had to speak myself. Ok then.)) Elzebet" chadul says Silence! Kedian: to bring his unceasing, unmoving dominion to Temuair. Kedian: Consider the mundane. Kedian: Easier to control, easier to influence, easier to Kedian: manipulate. Kedian: Chadul returns to Temuair not as active chaos, or an Kedian: active threat, but as a blanket of mundanity. Kedian: A blanket of permanent, absolute, static dominion, our Kedian: lives becoming ever more orderly, ever more rote. Kedian: Soon we may be frozen in place forever. Elzebet> :) Kedian: The final death, and the ultimate victory of Chadul: Kedian: The death of all Aisling light. Kedian: Every eight Deochs, the energy of the Pentagram wanes. Kedian: He wants to escape, to conqure the universe, to bind us to Kedian: him in an infinite slavery. Kedian: The foolish believe he is locked there, bound indefinitely. Kedian: The wise know for sure that there is ever mundanes who wish Kedian: to aid him, and foolish Aislings who seek his power to Kedian: hold dominion over others. Kedian: From the history of Loures, as well as our own history, Kedian: we can conclude that nothing is as important as the Kedian: total dominion and power of the sovereign. Kedian: So it is no leap of logic, really, to suggest that the Kedian: Mundanes are in league with Chadul, and the desire to Kedian: bring about a permanent, unchanging order. Kedian: I cannot think of an easier kingdom to rule, forever. Kedian: Long have the mundanes sought to uproot the Aisling from Kedian: time itself; to reduce this world to a collection of Kedian: easily managed static parts. Kedian: So again we come to the importance of the spark, but also Kedian: with a newly formed idea about the nature of chaos. Kedian: Deoch was pulled away from Chadul, to Danaan, by his love Kedian: of novelty - unique inspiration. Kedian: As Aislings, infused with his flame, we too exist as Kedian: novelty-seeking organisms, unless damaged or mutated by Kedian: our environment. Kedian: We begin as mundanes; but we are called by Deoch to a Kedian: higher service and art. Kedian: More importantly, our spark is protection, a guarantee to Kedian: our ability to fight the static oblivion of Chadul. Kedian: Danaan's light provides infinite diversity in infinite Kedian: combinations - a never ending buffet of experience, Kedian: inspiration, yes, even debauchery - everything new, and Kedian: novel. Kedian: Danaan's light blows away the dark, permanent, unmoving, Kedian: unceasing order of Chadul, who represents a static, Kedian: material, purely *mundane* universe. Kedian: Danaan is literally the representation of the spiritual Kedian: act of creation. Kedian: The act of the magician - bringing definition and the Kedian: sprawl of nature into existence. Kedian: Danaan's magic is *the word*. In the magic sense, but Kedian: also the religious sense. Kedian: The word is the mechanism of invocation. Wev've talked Kedian: about it before - the flame of Deoch is *our* magic. Kedian: Our way of bringing light into the world, a continual Kedian: process of novelty. Kedian: As Aislings we carry on this work - Deoch's work. Kedian: Deoch began as a lieutenant of Chadul, kept fat and happy Kedian: with the gifts heaped upon him by his dark majesty - but Kedian: he eventually rebels. Kedian: He becomes an agent of Chaos, entirely. Kedian: With Danaan, he conspires to fight the ordered darkness Kedian: with the best weapon imaginable: light, in an infinite and Kedian: ever changing number of forms. Kedian: The light is chaotic, of course, because it casts a Kedian: shadow that changes constantly. Even the brightest lights Kedian: of my or any other time, could not keep darkness away Kedian: indefinitely. Kedian: I have come to believe that Danaan's goal was not to defeat Kedian: or obliterate darkness, but to provide a counterbalance, Kedian: to ensure the darkness did not consume us. Kedian: After all, I submit to you that Danaan does not wish the Kedian: material world to become a void of infinite light - that Kedian: is her desire for our eventual spiritual death. Kedian: When we return to Danaan we are drops of rain returning to Kedian: the infinite river. Kedian: Deoch's union with Danaan, shows him that there is more Kedian: beyond the static darkness of Chadul. Kedian: He sees that the light of Aislings is a leap forward. Kedian: A new way of being, a new type of consciousness never Kedian: seen before in Temuair: an interweaving of the light, Kedian: *and* the dark. Kedian: So we've reached a particularly interesting thesis: Kedian: that Danaan's manifestation in the material realm is Kedian: chaotic; and her spiritual form orderly; Kedian: and Chadul the reverse: a material order, but a chaotic Kedian: spiritual form. Kedian: We must therefore cleave away this concept of "good" and Kedian: "bad" from order and chaos. Kedian: They are both. Kedian: The gods themselves, remind us of this fact. Some of them Kedian: are most comfortable as avatars of one or the other - Kedian: but they can be representative of each. Constructive, Kedian: destructive, order, chaos - these elements are not Kedian: inherently good or evil. They simply exist. Kedian: As in much else, the question of ethics only arises from Kedian: the direct use of the component; and not from its Kedian: inherent capabilities. Kedian: Let's look at the gods, for some clues. Kedian: Deoch, true to his nature, is the avatar of constructive Kedian: chaos. All of our creative efforts take root and bloom Kedian: in his flame of inspiration. Kedian: Glioca, pure daughter of the Light, is the embodiment of Kedian: constructive order. Kedian: Compassion is entirely orderly, the purest of logical Kedian: propositions: accept all, deny none. Kedian: But there are many forms of love. Kedian: Desire can be easily twisted to destructive, corrupt ends, Kedian: and anyone who has been alive for more than, say, eight Kedian: seconds, knows this. Kedian: Cail: beget of the combination of constructive order Kedian: (Glioca) and destructive chaos (Ceannlaidir), shows us that Kedian: nothing in nature can long exist outside this balance. Kedian: Cail is the synthesis of two disparate wholes; unity. Kedian: Nature always errs on the side of creation, even if it must Kedian: destroy itself to do so. Kedian: Generally speaking, Luathas is orderly and constructive. Kedian: The best wisdom and knowledge is that which endures. Kedian: But: gnosis, that divine spark, the bolt from the blue, is Kedian: inherently chaotic. Kedian: Gramail is a particularly interesting one. Kedian: We can imagine constructive order - a stereotypical good Kedian: government - but we can also imagine a government hellbent Kedian: on dominating the life of its citizens, or at the very Kedian: least, stifling them and their creative expression. Kedian: Law, however, generally speaking: is a logical construct, Kedian: and a mostly orderly one at that, even if politics is Kedian: generally the opposite. Kedian: Ceannlaidir is obvious. Destructive chaos. Although there Kedian: is an order to war, Ceannlaidir is no general; he is a Kedian: fighter through and through. Kedian: Fiosachd is rare. He can be anything. As the embodiment of Kedian: Fortune, there is profit and opportunity to be had Kedian: everywhere. Kedian: Lastly...Sgrios. pelthorian" funny, when you were talking bout cean and war Kedian: Sgrios prefers destruction to all else. Kedian: Anything that returns souls to his domain, he will embrace. pelthorian" i figure fioschd and gramail would be entities that pelthorian" could start or end a war Pelthorian> A good point. Do you want to speak it aloud? Kedian: Lastly we can begin by thinking of these facets in our Kedian: lives as they relate to our politics and social orders. Kedian: Constructive order might generally give us well-run pelthorian" no im shy actually Kedian: towns and systems that respect personal authority and Kedian: dignity. Kedian: Destructive order would trend towards corrupt or ossified Kedian: political orders that do not serve the will of the people. Kedian: Destructive chaos does not build. It only burns, for the Kedian: sake of burning. Kedian: To thrill at desecration. Kedian: Constructive chaos, would tend to give us a government Kedian: valuing freedom of expression, as well as the freedom to Kedian: make individual choices to express ourselves. Kedian: As discussed, it gives us the spark of the Aisling. Kedian: Creativity, novelty, light, beauty, art. Kedian: We can say for sure, however, that Chadul is the very worst Kedian: basis for a political order. Kedian: His influence is subtle, and dangerous. Kedian: He slowly weaves a noose of permanent order around the neck Kedian: of Temuair. Kedian: I have mentioned the desperate need for renewal, the Kedian: need for reinvigoration of our flame, and a rededication Kedian: to the Great Work of Danaan. Kedian: I fear that a long, infinite, ordered darkness awaits us Kedian: if we cannot find our own inspiration to save ourselves, Kedian: and our world. Kedian: *shuffles papers* Thank you very much for listening. Kedian: Before I mark attendance, does anyone need a tardy? RenaTsurian" Tardy please! Elzebet" < Angelique" Tardy please Elzebet" E L Z E B E T huhuman" I would love a tardy Kedian: *makes notes* Anyone else? Kedian: Alright then. Angelique: A curious theory. Kedian: I am available for questions, complaints, wonderments, kidoba: Kedian: or shouting. kidoba: me Kedian: As always. kidoba: aww Angelique: *laughs* By your telling I'd be Chadul himself. What Angelique: a silly notion that would be. Kedian: Yes, so silly. *eyes evenly* Angelique: *smiles* Yes, quite. proggy: what does kidoba: guess i am too late proggy: A philosophy lesson you are not a student or already learne Wureen" I guess I was late, didn't realize I was. Kedian: It means you probably already had a class. :( Angelique: Or were not present for the start, and did not get Angelique: a tardy, is more likely. Angelique: Or were out of labor at the start. Elzebet: Thanks, guys. Kedian: You are welcome. Angelique: But yes, where was I. I find the idea of Chadul as Angelique: orderly a bit... well, I'm having trouble reconciling. Angelique: Countless works, which I'd be happy to provide, point Kedian: Mhm. I did too, at first. Angelique: to a more chaotic nature. Angelique: Excluding my own, of course. Kedian: *laughs* Kedian: Yes. Your work is rather interesting. Kedian: It confirmed what I already had concluded, in fact. Kedian: In truth. Kedian: I think that Danaan and Chadul both, as well, can be Kedian: multifaceted. Kedian: Which is why I suggest Chadul's material manifestation, the Kedian: one best likely to suit him, would be one where there was Kedian: no chaos at all, no uprisings, no fighting. Kedian: Fixed in time like flies in amber, as I said. Angelique: I'm sure you're familiar with my... labours over the Angelique: last century or two. Kedian: Indeed. Kedian: But perhaps you might remember that no one can long serve Angelique: Gramail often stands alone against Chaos, whether light Kedian: two masters. Angelique: or dark. Kedian: Yes, Gramail is one of those oddball ones. Angelique: Two masters? And here I thought there wasn't even one. Kedian: It is facile to say he is orderly, and does not reflect Kedian: a correct understanding of government. Kedian: Frankly speaking. Angelique: Must have become soft in my old age. Kedian: *laughs* Kedian: Soft is....hmm Kedian: well, it's not a term I'd associate with you, or in fact Kedian: anywhere near you, or in the same country as you Angelique: *grins* Oh come now, what harm could I do. Kedian: Like I say, each of us chooses a course daily. Angelique: I would wager sometimes the course chooses us. Elzebet: You feed one wolfe over the other, that's the only Elzebet: definite! Kedian: *nod* pelthorian: government is historically corrupted thoughtout the age Elzebet: Pre-destined Kedian: *gathers papers, puts them away into a folio* Kedian: Yes, that's very true. Kedian: I suppose the question is, is there any form of Kedian: government immune to it. Kedian: I argue instead that the system must correct itself, Kedian: rather than expecting corruption to never occur. Kedian: And when it does correct itself, it must be swift, and Kedian: without mercy. Angelique: I see you recall my work in Rucesion then. Kedian: Yeah, speaking of two masters. Kedian: *laughs* Kedian: I'm happy to simply live my life and teach, truth be Kedian: told. Angelique: *grins* I, at best, serve a minor role as a learned Angelique: advisor, nothing more. Kedian: *laughs* pelthorian: I cannot think of a government that is closest to not pelthorian: being corrupt pelthorian: good class Mr. Kedian Kedian: Thank you. pelthorian: fair day, Kedian: Take care. pelthorian: time to go cook me some mango apricot peach infused pelthorian: chicken Elzebet: Enjoy! pelthorian: and double up on c+ Elzebet: We should have a shirt requirement for class. Elzebet: His muscles were distracting me. Kedian: No shoes, no shirt, no service? Elzebet: No, sir! eustice: no shirt? eustice: oh. Elzebet: Kidding, obviously Kedian: Well. Angelique: Indeed. Kedian: *closes the clasp on his leather case* Angelique: I should then, slither off into the night to continue Angelique: to bump under the beds of Aislings, yes? *laughs* Kedian: Go with the blessing of Deoch, darling. Kedian: *smiles* Angelique: Ugh. Such chaotic sentimentalism. Kedian: Hahaha. Yes. Kedian: Guilty. Kedian: I will retire, and perhaps work on my sixth class. Angelique: Do you know Angelique: what we used to say in the old days? Kedian: ...Hmm? Angelique: May Gramail keep you. Kedian: ...Keep me where, exactly? Angelique: Fitting, don't you think? RenaTsurian: Thanks for the discourse. ALways great listening to yo RenaTsurian: u two. Kedian: You're welcome. Kedian: ...Gramail keep me. No thanks. Kedian: Sheesh. Angelique: I'll admit I never inquired as to where one would be Kedian: *shivers* Angelique: kept. Kedian: ...perish the thought